Curse

MentalMidgit · Apr 19, 2007, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Hi I just recently started up a GvG guild and am looking for some constructive criticism on my build.

http://gwshack.us/38f45

Phelann · Apr 19, 2007, 06:37 AM // 06:37

when you just start gvging, you really should just be copying builds from top teams.

DutchSmurf · Apr 19, 2007, 11:54 AM // 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelann

when you just start gvging, you really should just be copying builds from top teams.

No, you shouldn't. You might copy characterbuilds, but copying a complete gvg-build from a top team is just the fastest way to lose. To run a build of a top team, you need to be a top team. If you are just starting, you are far from that.

So if you are just starting, run something easy. And when you talk about easy, the answer on this forum seems to be hexes and assassins. So you got that part right already. I would change both your assassins to the standard 'BoA'-assassin. So add an expose defenses. They are easy to run decent and they kill things, perfect for starters.
On the first necro, drop Barbs and take something more useful of your choice instead.
I would completely change the second necro, either to a dominationhexer or a 'copy' of either your other necro or the mesmer. A ranger is possible too in this spot.
On the mesmer, drop the mantra of inscriptions for mantra of persistence. Not sure about the shooting images, maybe a second spirit of failure there.

JR · Apr 19, 2007, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

No, you shouldn't. You might copy characterbuilds, but copying a complete gvg-build from a top team is just the fastest way to lose. To run a build of a top team, you need to be a top team. If you are just starting, you are far from that.

You don't train for a marathon by jogging around the block a couple times.

Secondly; recommending that new players should improve by playing burst assassins and hexes... that's pretty damn stupid.

Taurus · Apr 19, 2007, 12:55 PM // 12:55

That mesmer cant have only power drain as only interrupt, you need at least sig of disrupt and power return.

Blame the Monks · Apr 19, 2007, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

To run a build of a top team, you need to be a top team.

I disagree. Playing a top 20 build will teach you to vary tactics, use your bar to win games, and work together a lot faster than running one dimensional gimmicks like sins. Sure, you won't be able to do everything from day one, buy your build has the potential to do so and you can grow to meet the role.

Top 20 builds are proven winners designed by people who generally understand the game very well. Run it and have confidence your losses are your fault, not the builds. This narrows down what needs to be improved. (Watch what a top 20 would do to win in that situation). Run a homegrown mod, and chances are your changes will make the build worse -- for any value you get in trying to tailor the build and understand it, you will lose value in making worse changes and never settling in one build.

Finally, when push comes to shove, GW isn't rocket science. You don't have to micro like a korean to win. You don't need to strategize like iQ. To get to top 100 and beyond, all you need to do is communicate and work together and use the skills on your bar with a bit of sense.

DSHOT THE RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING AEGIS, STOP WASTING TIME PICKING OFF MEANINGLESS ARCHERS!

DutchSmurf · Apr 19, 2007, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

You don't train for a marathon by jogging around the block a couple times.

If you have never run before, that is your first step.

And I really doubt if Blame the Monks played for any rank 2000+ guild lately. I did, a couple of times. We ran eF's build (or something close to that). And it was horrible. There were that many things wrong that I had no idea where to start correcting them. I made them play 2 assassins instead, the assassins killed some things, we won a couple of matches, they started to have fun playing gvg for the first time in their life and finally I could make some suggestions about how to improve their playing.
What use is it if I know my loss is because of the players if I can't say which mistake they actually made? Better to give them an easy to run build. Assassins (and most of all the BoA one) are very easy to run. You might not learn as much as when playing a warrior, but atleast you do learn a lot about playing a gvg. Like one (or more?) of them didn't know the lord moves at 25 minutes.

To learn the game, you need to play. People don't play if they don't have fun. Losing isn't fun. So give them an easy to run build that wins. Since you, JR, don't want them to run hexes and assassins, come with something better instead.

Narcism · Apr 19, 2007, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Real simple, running a build you know works, immediately takes away the concern that the build sucks.

You run a tried and true build? perfect, you know if you lose it's because of tactics or player skill. it's simple really.

You run grab 8 and go? i liek this one, because people are on characters that works, you know it's team synergy or tactics.

Quote:

And I really doubt if Blame the Monks played for any rank 2000+ guild lately

Blame plays for rank 5000 guilds iirc.. oh wait...

Patrograd · Apr 19, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

I'm a firm believer in new guilds taking a build off obs mode and running it for a while. Needs to be the right build I think, something relatively simple - very little point in inexperienced players trying to run a "control" build that relies heavily on shutting down key skills and key players at key moments for example, but there are plenty of top 100 builds that are fun and simple to play, and yet are still relatively "balanced" (in the scheme of things) - hexway, NR/tranq, 3 melee +wpn rit for example. Running these kinds of builds will give you wins, and ultimately exposure to slightly better teams than those you will face at rank 2000-1000. You learn by playing teams that are better than you, not by facing teams running random builds with no strategy

if you make up your own build, and it doesnt work, you can spend forever under the assumption that it is the build that doesnt work when you lose (and it might be, you never know) and so you keep changing the build, not the way that you are playing. Run a top 100 build and it doesnt work against a rank 1000 team, then you know 100% for sure that you need to figure out what it is that *you* are doing wrong, and this self analysis is also what improves you as a player and your group as a team.

Blame the Monks · Apr 19, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

And I really doubt if Blame the Monks played for any rank 2000+ guild lately. I did, a couple of times.

Actually, I regularly guest for XoO and contribute builds and strategy for their private and public forums. See an example of this HERE. Some of the XoO divisions are ranked over 1k and have people who are new to gvg and/or simply prefer to gvg very casually. I tell them the same thing I posted here -- you are better off focusing on one proven build and learning to play it well than running whatever fotm gimmick comes along. You will learn more, have more fun, and win more games in the long run.

Bankai · Apr 19, 2007, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Smurf: There are some builds that are used by high-ranked teams that are hard to be utilized by people who don't have a lot of experience. For example, when you're new, you should never take a build like Eurosplit. Some builds just aren't noob-friendly, especially ones that have very little defense and rely almost only on the monks for defense.

Though I don't have any idea what eF runs.

DutchSmurf · Apr 19, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

Actually, I regularly guest for XoO and contribute builds and strategy for their private and public forums. See an example of this HERE. Some of the XoO divisions are ranked over 1k and have people who are new to gvg and/or simply prefer to gvg very casually. I tell them the same thing I posted here -- you are better off focusing on one proven build and learning to play it well than running whatever fotm gimmick comes along. You will learn more, have more fun, and win more games in the long run.

Problem is many guilds never get past the first few losses and rather move back to HA where they atleast have a chance of winning. XoO doesn't really count there. Although if you played for XoE (if they still play gvg) you might understand it better. The level there at times was just that horrible that the few skilled ones ran away screaming at one point. Most top 2000+ guilds I played for lost a couple of times (not because of the build) and didn't return for months. They don't even get to the "did we lose because of the buid or because we are bad?"
If you look at what I suggested, you see I ended with a similar build as the one in your link, only I placed assassins in them. I And there is atleast one top 100 guild running that, so you can always tell them to watch those. Assassins are far easier to play then Dervish and Warrior and get more kills with less communication. People hating them is no reason not to use them. XoO btw has far more communication and far more skill then a normal guild around that rank.
So I think we actually agree, we just say it different. I have nothing against stealing builds from top 100 guilds, just pick the right one. And since you can't expect a new player to pick the right one, saying "just watch what top guilds use" doesn't make any sense.

So instead of making this a discussing with me, come with suggestions for his build. Since there is nothing harder in this game then starting playing gvg.

PS. And for anyone that doesn't know, the eF build I was talking about is the build used by them in the tournament. Which was about the build Blame linked to.

Blame the Monks · Apr 19, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

XoO btw has far more communication and far more skill then a normal guild around that rank.

I agree, but that doesn't change my original point -- new guilds are better off running simple, proven builds. IE, stick to the mainstream of the meta, don't try to reinvent the wheel, and watch top 100 teams play the same build to learn tricks of the trade.

DutchSmurf · Apr 19, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

I agree, but that doesn't change my original point -- new guilds are better off running simple, proven builds. IE, stick to the mainstream of the meta, don't try to reinvent the wheel, and watch top 100 teams play the same build to learn tricks of the trade.

Something I completely agree with. But you can't expect a new player/guild to know which build works and which doesn't. Not even after observing it. Something that a good guild makes look easy might be very hard to run yourself. So time to get back on topic, help this guy getting a simple, proven build.

Bankai · Apr 19, 2007, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Anyway- back to the original point.

The build is fine, but do make sure you change the runner to something with more healing. It cannot survive on its own. This build is fine for learning the basics of GvG, basic stratcalling, etc.

As soon as you have grasped the basics of GvG, move onto regularly played builds.

Phe Belladona · Apr 19, 2007, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Holy Veil on the LoD over Deny, 1 Aegis will get removed faster than you can say Mirror i'd suggest a guardian for more targetted defense. You also might wanna watch the energy on that mesmer if you change to Persistance as Soothing and it are hefty costs. the prot might look like a nice 2 hex removals for deny and sig of dev BUT the sig is fast to recharge and if you're aiming for 2 hex removals it'll take 3 secs to remove them which is harsh in a crucial point. i personally prefer Veil in general as it offers great protection from the loved Diversion spam mesmers and makes you almost immune to Migraine but i do see your point for heavy hex removal somewhere on the team, perhaps fit in a convert hexes?

just my oppinions tho.. more important than the build tho imo is synergy and control being fluid in the guild, deligate tasks to ppl. also just play ^^ its fun and a game.

Seamus Finn · Apr 19, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by DutchSmurf

PS. And for anyone that doesn't know, the eF build I was talking about is the build used by them in the tournament. Which was about the build Blame linked to.

That build is notoriously easy to run. eF even said so themselves. It was also (at the time) clearly the strongest build foundation at the time, and quite possibly still is. The only reason I wouldn't want to run that in a new guild is you are causing very bad habits from the begining(set adn forget and win, hip hip hooray for hexes!).

MentalMidgit · Apr 19, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Ok maybe i did not make it clear i am not new to gvg. This is a new guild and a new build i thought up. To the person who said expose, 1 of the necros is runnign a rigor mortis and throwing it on before the spike. The same goes for barbs which, assuming all the attacks hit, adds 180+ dmg to the spike.

Vermilion · Apr 20, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Honestly for hexes, this build has a lot of things that don't make sense to me. Your first necro won't meet the attribute req for reapers or spirit of failure..even using a superior rune, which is bleh. You would do fine with 1 sig of humility/mantra, so you could drop spirit of failure off the necro and put it on the mesmer..id prolly drop soothing, which is mehsauce. Eurohex goes with a BA/BHA ranger instead of a third hexer, which makes the build a lot better in the split. (Along with splittable melee) Just saying. Gogo jade isle.

MentalMidgit · Apr 20, 2007, 02:27 AM // 02:27

well thats the thing, im not trying to run a build thats on obs mode 24/7